posted 08-06-2007 06:22 PM         

I know this guy and I know what kind of testing he is doing. It ain't any more or less "special" than any other test.

Is it any wonder why this profession has image problems???????

posted 08-06-2007 06:33 PM            

Patrick Coffey is by no means a 'clown'. I have known him for 15 years. I was the one who actually encouraged him to place this ad as I was starting a new ad area in which examiners could highlight areas of polygraph in which they have developed a level of expertise or have 'specialized' in.

I would have to disagree, I think the immigration tests do have nuances just like pcsot tests that makes them different, such as language barriers, interpretors, legal issues, etc.

I turned one of these tests down here in Atlanta because I simply didn't feel prepared after having a conversation with Patrick about what would be required of me for the test.

Okay, enough on that. Thanks Ted for always being so calm and non-opinionated in these forums

------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator
http://www.polygraphplace.com

posted 08-06-2007 06:35 PM         

For him to try to tell you that you need his special training and "I-CARE" certification is a total joke!

I however will be offering my own Forensic Arson Responsibility Training and certification in December in anyone is interested.

posted 08-06-2007 06:48 PM         

Let me first apologise to Pat (and to you) for the term clown.

I just think to call this type of test a speciality is a grand overstatement!

posted 08-06-2007 07:43 PM            

With over 30 million Spanish-speaking people in this country both legally and illegally,and 1 billion worldwide, I could kick my a$$ for spacing-out in high school spanish cla$$e$.

I am nontheless anxious to hear Mr. C's synopsis of his coursework. Ralph, could you have him give us a preview on this board?

posted 08-06-2007 09:45 PM         

Don't give it no never mind if you aint familiar with this instrument. I can train yall and certify you down at the road house in less than a six-pack.

posted 08-06-2007 09:52 PM            

quote:

---

I however will be offering my own Forensic Arson Responsibility Training and certification in December in anyone is interested.

---

I was thinking about offering a liquidity preference seminar...

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 08-06-2007 10:07 PM         

Not edited....completely nuked!

Ted

posted 08-09-2007 02:37 PM            

In his handouts he listed a typical Asylum test as follows:

R5: Have you lied on any part of your asylum application?

R7: Have you lied on any part of your asylum application which is now under review?

Is there any part of your political asylum application which is a lie?

The other one was a "Torture During Arrest Test.

R5: Have you lied about being tortured during your arrest by the (police or government entity)?

R7:...which is now under review?

R10: Is there any part of your claim of torture during your arrest which is a lie?

There were other examples of tests on topics such as fraudulent marriages, Human trafficing, special category stuff.

posted 08-19-2007 06:47 PM            

THIS IS MY FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO GET ON THE FORUM AND RESPOND TO YOUR LABELING ME A CLOWN AND THE TYPE OF TESTING I DO AS NO BIG DEAL !

FIRST, MY CREDENTIALS ARE THAT I WILL BE STARTING MY 21ST YEAR AS AN EXAMINER IN MID 12/07, AND HAVE A BACKGROUND AS AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER IN BOTH U.S. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE AND THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY HAVING WORKED WITH COMMUNIST DEFECTORS AND OTHER ASSORTED INTERESTING INDIVIDUALS. I HAVE A B.A. IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, HAVE TAUGHT AS AN INSTRUCTOR FOR NO LESS THAN THREE APA ACCREDITED SCHOOLS, AS WELL AS TEACH ABROAD IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN PLACES FEW WOULD VOLUNTARILY GO. WHILE I CAN NOT SAY FOR SURE, BUT I BELIEVE AT THIS POINT I HAVE THE LARGEST BODY OF WORK IN THIS FIELD, AND HAVE SOUGHT PEER REVIEW AND IN INPUT THROUGH CONTACTS AT DACA / DODPI, AND OTHER HIGHLY RESPECTED EXAMINERS, SOME OF WHOM YOU KNOW.

SECOND, TO TED !! YOUR APOLOGY IS ACCEPTED !! WHEN YOU HAVE SOME FREE TIME, I WOULD HAPPILY TAKE YOU IN AS A FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE IN MY OFFICE AND HAVE YOU LEARN THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THIS AREA OF ASYLUM & OTHER SPECIALIZED IMMIGRATION ISSUE TESTING INCLUSIVE OF UNDERSTANDING THE WORKINGS OF THESE SPECIALIZED ADMINISTRATIVE COURTS, AILA, THE MULTITUDE OF ISSUES INVOLVED, STAGES OF EACH CASE AND PROPER ASSOCIATED TESTING FORMAT, AND OVERALL HOW TO REVERSE ENGINEER THESE CASES INTO A TEST THE COURTS WILL ACCEPT. HOW DO I KNOW THIS ???? I HAVE DONE OVER 500 OF THESE CASES IN THE LAST 4 1/2 YEARS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE GONE AS HIGH AS THE 9TH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS WHERE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OUR PROFESSION WE WERE AFFIRMED AT SEVERAL LOWER LEVELS AS AN ACCEPTABLE METHOD OF EVIDENCE GIVEN THE GRAVITY OF THE POSSIBLE FATE OF THESE ASYLEES SHOULD THEY BE DEPORTED.

IN SHORT, THIS IS A BIG DEAL WITH REAL HUMAN LIVES AT STAKE, AND IT ALSO PROVIDES US WITH THE INCREDIBLY RARE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOMETHING ELSE IN THIS PROFESSION BESIDES PREACH TO THE CHOIR (REPEATIVELY RE-SELL THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED OUR CONTRIBUTION); AND EVEN AMONG THEM WE HAVE LOST SOME AGENCIES TO CVSA DESPITE OUR BEST EFFORTS. THE UNCONQUERED TERRITORY IS WITH THOSE WHO NEED TO BE WON OVER ON THE LIBERAL SIDE OF THE AISLE, YOU REMEMBER THEM, THE EPPA CROWD; WHO JUST MIGHT SEE US AS HELPING SOMEONE WITH OUR PROFESSIONAL CAPABILITIES.

THIRD, I AM VERY THICK SKINNED AS EXAMINERS GO, BUT HAVE WONDERED WHY ONE SO YOUNG IN THE PROFESSION WOULD TAKE A BITE OUT OF ME, RATHER THAN SEEK THE ABILITY TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW, AND SIMPLY AGREE THAT SUCH CASES NEED STANDARDAZATION, ACCREDIDATION, AND APA OVERSIGHT; A PLAN I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR A WHILE NOW WITH THOSE WITHIN THE APA BOARD, AND FORMER BOARD MEMBERS. THIS "IS" A TYPE OF TESTING YOU "WILL" BE DOING TESTIMONY WITH, AND BY THAT MEASURE ALONE IT NEEDS TO BE HIGHLY REGULATED. IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WITH SUPERIOR CREDENTIALS TO MINE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS, THEN PLEASE LET ME KNOW AND I WOULD KINDLY STEP ASIDE AND PROVIDE THEM MY BODY OF WORK, EXPERIENCES, CONCLUSIONS, AND LET THEM MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS IN OUR BEST INTEREST. OTHERWISE, I PLAN TO PROCEED IN BUILDING A CONCENSUS WHEREIN WE WIDEN OUR PROFESSIONAL CONTRIBUTION, AND HAVE US GAIN FURTHER CREDIBILITY AMONG THOSE ON THE FENCE POST ABOUT OUR PROFESSION, AND REMOVE THE PERCEPTION THAT WE ARE MERELY D.I. ORIENTED.

FOURTH, AND IN CLOSING, THERE ARE SOME WHO BELIEVE THAT ATTENDING A CONFERENCE WITH ME AND BEING INTRODUCED TO THE "CONCEPT" OF THESE TESTS HAS EQUATED TO BEING CERTIFIED TO DO THESE TESTS. THIS IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE. I FORMED I-CARE AS A MEANS OF CREATING A SPECIALIZED TRAINING COURSE WHICH WOULD HAVE MEANING ON THE STAND, JUST AS THE SEX OFFENDER TRAINING HAS, AND THAT COURSE WORK IS IN DEVELOPMENT. YOU WILL FORGIVE ME TED, AND OTHER CRITICS, IF I SOMEHOW MANAGED TO HAVE A STROKE IN THE INTERUM PERIOD SINCE I STARTED THIS WORK, AND AM NOW BACK AT THIS 110% TOWARD MAKING THIS SUCCESS FOR ALL OF US.

---- I EMBRACE BOTH MY CRITICS AND SUPPORTERS TOWARD THE END GOAL OF MAKING THIS PROFESSION "LARGER", AND FOR THE BETTERMENT OF OUR IMAGE AND CONTRIBUTION.

THANK YOU !

posted 08-20-2007 12:40 AM            

Far from being thought of as a "clown", I would rather ask of you that each of us has a responsibility to make this profession better than we inherited it, which I have spent the last twenty years working at.

Thanks,

Patrick T. Coffey
TheNoLieGuy4u@earthlink.net

posted 08-20-2007 06:17 PM            

I assume that at least some of your testing is conducted in languages other than English. Some of our recent discussions on this board pertained to interpreter issues, etc. What are some of your observations with regard to conducting these type of examinations?

posted 08-20-2007 09:28 PM         

Let me first appoligise again to you for my "clown" comment. I have called Sacket, Stat and Ray much worse on this board and Ralph is always putting me on "Posting Probation" for doing so! I have even gotten a little fiesty with Dr. B!

I think you have found a new market for the polygraph and I salute you! I hope you run with it all the way to the bank!

My concern is this. If your test is in fact, a "new" type of test that requires special training and certification, does it meet any of the existing standards. Has it been subject to peer review? Has APA, AAPP or ASTM had the opportunity to review the format?

From what I have seen posted on this board, the test looks to be a garden variety specific issue exam. Am I wrong?

I don't think it helps our profession to create splinter formats and certifications. I have done at least 50 homicide polygraphs. Does that mean that I am a specialist? I don't think so. If I need special certification to test for theft, homicide, drug sales, fraud, forgery and the like, then I think Cleve should give me my tuition back.

I hope to see you at CAPE in Coronado and yes, I would like to hear more about your test.....I'll buy the first round!

Take care Pat

posted 08-20-2007 11:21 PM            

Thanks for your reply and civility. In regard to Testing for Asylum & Other Immigration Issues there need not be a fear of lack of skills, but rather a new way of targeting what we do. Try to image my having been in polygraph school in 11/87 when EPPA passed which dealt with a "class" of people under the law "Employees". What I have therefore tried to do here is to find a "Class" of people under the law (and both domestic federal and international in this case) whom we might attach out services as a reverse mirror image approach. I looked at where the Circuit Courts of Appeals got their caseloads and found that 17% came from the Immigration Courts. Further, that despirt my naive prior believe that asylum / political asylum cases were rare and perhaps given to deposed former leaders and their extended families, that rather 60,000 of these are filed each year and are subject to the more open / leniant "Administrative Law Courts / Judges". Still better, and since the .Com era bust with a record number of bankruptcies, these courts have opened up to where one may testify by phone !!! and I have done so a dozen times or more among the 500+ cases I have tested. That does not mean that only a dozen passed, but rather that those NDI's submitted in the case are waiting their turn up to bat with a pending court date in Immigration Court.

Perhaps what is new about these cases is that they exist outside of our current mindset. Most all of us are in fact "Hunters" trained to interrogate on D.I., and even INCONCLUSIVE charts. There are not many promotions handed out based on NDI tests, but rather based on case resolutions generally inclusive of confessions and convictions. We have catered well to the conservative / pro-law enforcement side of the house in regard to getting the bad guys, and we continued to "Sell" that approach. What I have tried to pioneer here fellas is a way to divide and conquer the uncharted territory of the liberal mindset, a group of people we don't either know how to talk to or want to as we tend to have conservative backgrounds / roots. Liberals are obsessed with "Helping" victims, or perceived victims. Most Attornies, and therefore later in their careers Judges, are somewhat Liberal. The repackaging of what we do for those who meet the high standard of an NDI test (Hand Score + Algorithm backing) are rewarded with "favorable" testimony; with nobody left to argue against that ! What about the opposing government Attorney you ask ?????? To date they have never asked me more than six or eight questions on the stand, as when they seek to attack, they implode on themselves as we only use a DoDPI / DACA taught test method. Further, while the court may like and respect you as an expert with your hand score ability, it the perceived "objective" supporting algorithms which are the clincher, especially when more than one agrees with their seperate databases. The Government can not disagree with their own test, and can not cross examine a computer algorithm they themselves use, funded the development for, and purchase for their own employees / agents.

To answer your question directly Ted, I believe this testing is new based on the circumstances these clients face. Few of us will ever do a test equating to the death penalty for the test subject, but for the Truthful here who are in fact legimate victims, they face further torture and/or death if deported back into the hands of those who formerly "handled" them. So the inherant risk in these tests is clear for their potential immigration status, and you run few inconclusives. What is also new about these is that you "Will" testify with these somewhat liberal Judges who are in fact in a catch 22 or lose/lose situation. On the one hand they don't want to make the mistake of deporting a Truthful actual victim, but on the other hand they don't want to support fraud either; and the fraud rate is quite high. The variable appears to be which country they come from, country conditions, and if they are rather simply economically motivated for their entry into the USA as is often the case. This is high stakes polygraph, second only to 187's in my book as to the potential outcome for this person. The D.I. remain under Attorney Privilige, and only the NDI move forward for case prep / and testimony.

Your pre-test interview skills as an Examiner will be tested as you develop the time line of events leading up to their entry into the USA. You will reach what I call a decision line as to one of three tests you must choose in a logic sequence I have developed from experience, run a CVOS, and then NOT break psychological set between your charts by introducing any stress relief variables.

I guess I would say that the main difference here is that your skills as an Examiner are being directed toward a non-confrontational diagnostice event, rather than a confrontational event if they are D.I. . Further, We are dealing with a unique set of laws here unknown to most of us, and even to the public generally. We as a community need to be introduced to functionality of these courts, their levels of appeal where we may pick up such cases, the mindset of attornies in this specialized for of practice, and how to speak their immigration law language. I have eat, lived and breathed this for the last four plus years,know it well,and want to share it. I make a fine living, and am not just in this for the money, but rather to make our profession "Larger", more Diverse in capability, and move us forward in the perception of the public that we can be independant, unbiased, seekers of the Truth; as we hold Truth to have it own value.

At the end of the day, such testing really undermines bastards like Maschke, or Doug Williams; as if they attack individuals who are in fact "Victims", they only appear as obsessed in the minds of the public, as we know them to truly be such zealots. I feel it as my calling NOT to divide our numbers, but rather to broaden our capability in this virgin market which I have barely touched on, and which I know if we keep high standards (Training, Certification, & Oversight) then we will move closer to our goals as a professional community. Dam It Guys & Gals, we may not get another chance at this kind of opportunity and great P.R. for our craft, so rather than be a pack or pirahnas attacking me for this, let's rather work on making our acceptance systematic for such cases, which can only spread to other specialized Administative Law Courts, and decision bodies. Let's just agree that for now we should welcome this "Half Loaf" of bread (NDI Testimony), rather than demand it both ways, and eventually we will chip away at the other half as technology gets us there pluse any tune ups on our other skills. Know a winner when you see it, bet on it, and win !

From The Heart !

posted 08-21-2007 09:37 PM         

You have danced on top of, and all around my question but failed to answer it !

Is your test format a specific issue or other accepted type? If it is, I really don't see your test as being "new" but rather your market is new. Again, I say congrats on developing this new market potential.

I would assume that there are considerations such as language differences, cultural differences and the like that must be considered when conducting these types of exams. I would also think that setting the comparison questions would be difficult under these circumstances.

Am I on the right track yet Pat?

You were off in another foreign country when a lady was discussed on this board. She was calling examiners and offering $50,000 to throw a test on her virginity. She was middle eastern and was about to be involved in an arranged marriage. She told me that she would be killed if it were known that she was not a virgin. I see your point on how the punishment for some of these people can be quite high.

I'm not sure but I think Sacket did the test for her(tee-hee).

Anyhow, I am still looking forward to hearing more from you on this.

Thanks and take care,

posted 08-22-2007 02:40 AM            

Is your test format a specific issue or other accepted type? ALL OF THESE TESTS ARE SPECIFIC ISSUES, BUT HAVE NEW VARIABLES WHICH YOU YOURSELF PARTIALLY DEFINED BELOW. If it is, I really don't see your test as being "new" but rather your market is new. WELL THEN, WASN'T SEX OFFENDER TESTING A NEW MARKET WITH NEW VARIABLES AND A POPULATION SPECIFIC GROUP WHICH REQUIRED TIGHT REGULATION, TRAINING, AND OVERSIGHT ? Again, I say congrats on developing this new market potential. THE CONGRATS ARE NOT FOR ME, IT'S NOT ABOUT ME, ITS ABOUT US, AND CONQUERING THE LIBERAL BIAS AGAINST US, AND THIS IS A PATHWAY THAT WILL GET US THERE. THIS IS A METHOD OF TESTING WHICH HAS AS A SIDE BENEFIT OF DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

I would assume that there are considerations such as language differences, cultural differences and the like that must be considered when conducting these types of exams. WITH THIS LAST SENTENCE YOU HAVE JUST DEFEATED YOUR OWN ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS NOT NEW. I would also think that setting the comparison questions would be difficult under these circumstances. NO, AS THEY ARE LIE COMPARISON BASED WHICH IS A CULTURAL UNIVERSAL, OR IN YOUR OFFICE ANYWAY IS SITUATIONALLY RELEVANT.

Am I on the right track yet Pat? YOUR CURIOSITY IS HEALTHY, BUT YOU HAVE NOT CONNECTED THE DOTS. WE ARE TRAINED HUNTERS FOR THE MOST PART HISTORICALLY. OUR PROMOTIONS, PRAISES, AWARDS, AND RAISES ARE MOSTLY PREDICATED ON ACCOMPLISHMENTS WITH D.I. CHARTS, OR SOMETIMES INCL WHICH LEAD TO AN INTERROGATION, A CONFESSION, AND A RESOLVED CASE. I DON'T KNOW OF ANYONE WHO EVER CLIMBED THE RANKS BASED ON NDI OUTCOMES. THUS, A PERCEPTION WE WERE D.I. ORIENTED. WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT ONLY A NEW MARKET, BUT A NEW WAY OF PRESENTING WHAT WE DO, OR A CHANGE IN THINKING THAT IF AND WHEN A DIAGNOSTIC CALL OF NDI OCCURS, THAT THESE DO IN FACT HAVE VALUE, THERE ARE THOSE READY TO VALUE THEM, AND IF AND WHEN THIS HAS SYSTEMATIC INTRODUCTION FOR THOSE WHO NEED TO KNOW; THEN WE HAVE CONQUERED NEW TERRITORY HERE, AND MOVE OURSELVES EVER CLOSER TO BEING PERCEIVED BY OTHERS AS IN FACT INDEPENDENT, UNBIASED SEEKERS OF THE TRUTH.

You were off in another foreign country when a lady was discussed on this board. She was calling examiners and offering $50,000 to throw a test on her virginity. WELL, I CAN ONLY SAY THAT BITCH NEVER CALLED ME, NOR WOULD I HAVE EVER SOLD MY SOUL FOR SUCH A PITTANCE. She was middle eastern and was about to be involved in an arranged marriage. She told me that she would be killed if it were known that she was not a virgin. I DON'T DO SUCH TESTS, AS I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE LIKELY THE WORLD OF PHYSICIANS TO DEAL WITH. I see your point on how the punishment for some of these people can be quite high. THANKS, AND THE CASES I'M SPEAKING OF ARE OF INDIVIDUALS WE CAN VALIDATE FOR LAWS ON THE BOOKS, AND ACTING IN VERIFICATION OF THAT IN LEAGUE WITH OTHER PROFESSIONALS DESCRIBED BEFORE. THE JUDGE MAKES ON OVERALL FINDING WITH THE THREE INGREDIENTS, BUT DOES NOT HAVE TO DISCLOSE IN HIS / HER RULING WHAT PERCENTAGE THEY PLACED ON A PARTICULAR PRO'S INPUT; ONLY THE OVERALL FINDING.

I'm not sure but I think Sacket did the test for her(tee-hee).

Anyhow, I am still looking forward to hearing more from you on this. IF YOU HAD NO OTHER REASON TO SEE THIS AS NEW, THEN CONSIDER THIS. MOST EXAMINERS HAVE "NEVER" TESTIFIED IN A CRIMINAL COURT OF LAW ABOUT THEIR CHARTS, OR SHALL WE SAY 2% OR LESS HAVE. IN THESE CIVIL CASES FOR THOSE WHO RUN NDI YOUR PRE-TEST INTERVIEW (MOST OFTEN SUPERIOR TO THE INFO AT THE TIME OF THE TEST CONTAINED WITHIN THE GOV. FORMS) ACTS AS THE PRIMARY READ FOR THE SHRINKS WHO PERFORM THEIR JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY PTSD TESTS ON THEM AS THE QUALIFIER OF WHAT TYPE OF TORTURE, AND/OR DEATH THREATS THESE PEOPLE HAVE ESCAPED. FURTHER, THE SAME GOES FOR THE PHYSICIAN WHERE YOU ARE THE REFERENCE OR APEX OF THESE CASES. FURTHER, THAT WHEN YOU HAVE AN NDI, THE ODDS ARE 100% THAT YOU WILL BE FOUGHT FOR AS BEING PLACED ON THAT WITNESS LIST,AND PROBABLY THE FIRST WITNESS AS TO HOW THESE OTHER TWO FIELDS DERIVED THEIR "INSPECTION" OF THIS CLAIMENT.

WITH SEX OFFENDERS, PROBATION OR PAROLE IS NOT A RIGHT, BUT RATHER A PRIVILEDGE. WHAT I'M WORKING WITH HERE IS THOSE WHO HAVE BOTH INTERNATIONAL TREATY RIGHTS, AND OUR DOMESTIC RIGHTS ONCE HERE, AND THESE CASES ARE MOST DEMANDING. THEY REQUIRE THE BEST FROM US, AND SO THIS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. I HAVE SPOKEN WITH ICONS IN THIS PROFESSION HERE AT APA IN NEW ORLEANS THIS WEEK WHO HAVE AGREED WITH ME THAT WE WILL NEVER GET ANOTHER CHANCE LIKE THIS.

Thanks and take care, YOU TOO, AND CONSIDER ALL OF THIS AND TELL ME CAN WE LET THIS BE RUINED BY NOT REGULATING IT, TRAINING FOR IT, AND/OR SETTING A HIGH STANDARD VIA CERTIFICATION. I KNOW WHAT THIS IS, WHAT WE HAVE HERE, AND THAT IT NEEDS OUR BEST TO OBTAIN FUTURE SYSTEMATIC INCLUSION. IT IS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR POLYGRAPH ACCEPTANCE.

posted 08-22-2007 12:30 PM         

Let's see here......your test format is;

Specific Issue, Lie Comparison, lots of variables. Pat, there is nothing "New" about this test format. The only thing "New" is the reason the test is being requested and the client base. If we regulate this then why not regulate Specific Issue tests for homicide, theft, rape, robbery, etc.

I still think your test is a great idea with great potential. I also think that anyone who is going to do this type of test should get all the information they can before attempting to do it. Obviously, you would be the best place for them to start!

I don't think certification and regulation are necessary.

Ted

posted 08-22-2007 03:11 PM            

WHAT IS YOUR ABSOLUTE OBSESSION ABOUT THAT FACT I HAVE NOT WRITTEN A NEW TEST FORMAT ? HAVE YOU ? DO YOU THINK WE NEED ONE. I HAVE NEVER FORWARDED THE POSITION OF A NEW TEST FORMAT, SO GET OFF THAT ALREADY AND BREAK OUT OF THE IDEA THAT ONLY NEW TESTS FORMATS EQUATE TO NEW FORMS OF POLYGRAPH. I AM HERE AT APA WITH MY WORK HAVING BEEN BLESSED BY THE ICONS OF THIS PROFESSION WHO HAVE OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS INVITED ME TO THEIR RESPECTIVE STATE ORGANIZATIONS OR SCHOOLS. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU ? MAYBE YOU COULD NOT GET TIME OFF OR SOMETHING, OKAY, BUT I'M HERE TRYING MY BEST TO MAKE THIS PROFESSION BIGGER WHILE YOU CAN'T BREAK OUT OF A MINDSET THAT IT HAS ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE. SO WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF SOMETHING NEW WITH ALL OF YOUR TIME AND ENGERGY ON THIS SITE, SURELY YOU HAVE SOMETHING MORE TO OFFER THAN JUST BEING A CRITIC.

I HAVE CLEARLY FORWARDED A DIVIDE AND CONQUER STRATEGY IN USING OUR SKILLS IN THIS AREA WHEREIN EVEN OUR ENEMY MASCHKE LOOKS LIKE A JERK OR OBSESSED PERSON IF AND WHEN HE CRITICIZES IT.

I HAVE OVER THE LAST FOUR AND A HALF YEARS DONE THE RESEARCH, LEARNED ABOUT THESE UNIQUE COURT SYSTEMS, PRECEDENT CASES, MADE A FEW WITH AGGRESSIVE LAW FIRMS, AND HAVE TRIED TO MAKE NEW MARKET WHERE EVEN YOU TED MIGHT GET TO USE THOSE NOTES FROM CLASS AT POLYGRAPH SCHOOL ABOUT TESTIMONY. OUR GOOD FRIEND WHOSE HOUSE WE MET AT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO FOR BAY AREA EXAMINERS DID ONE AND FOUND IT A UNIQUE EXPERIENCE, CALL HER AND ASK !!

(I still think your test is a great idea with great potential. I also think that anyone who is going to do this type of test should get all the information they can before attempting to do it. Obviously, you would be the best place for them to start!) THANK YOU FOR THAT TED !!

I don't think certification and regulation are necessary. THEN PLEASE BE SURE "NOT" TO ATTEND IT, AND BE FAIR TO THOSE WHO HAVE, AND DON'T PUT ASYLEES OR OTHERS AT RISK BASED ON ARROGANCE OF ASSUMING YOU KNOW JUST ENOUGH TO DO THIS, WHEN YOU OTHERWISE MIGHT HAVE DONE IT A BIT BETTER !! I MAKE A FINE LIVING, MAKE NOTHING OUT OF TRYING TO GET OTHERS SKILLS A BIT BETTER FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCES, AND HAVE TO TOLERATE A COURT JESTER / HECKLER IN THE PROCESS.

LASTLY, THESE MAY NOT BE THE TESTS FOR YOU TED ! THAT'S OKAY, YOU WILL NO DOUBT MAKE A FINE LIVING IN OTHER AREAS. I CAN SAY THE SAME FOR MYSELF IN REGARD TO SEX OFFENDERS, THEY ARE NOT MR. COFFEY'S CUP OF TEA. BUT I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE A UNIQUE GROUP TO DEAL WITH, AND THE EXPERIENCES AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE PIONEERS IN THAT AREA SHOULD BE RESPECTED FOR THEIR BREAK THROUGHS IN THE COURTS, PROBATION DEPT.'S, AND THERAPISTS APPRECIATION FOR OUR CONTRIBUTION; AS WELL AS WE EXAMINERS WHO CHOOSE NOT TO DO THEM.

SEX OFFENDERS WHO ARE ON PROBATION AND MAKE NEW ADMISSIONS GENERALLY ARE NOT FURTHER PUNISHED IN MOST AREAS AS THEY ARE SEEN AS MAKING "PROGRESS" IN TREATMENT ! ASYLEES WHO ARE NDI AND LEGITIMATE VICTIMS AS VALIDATED BY US AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL DISCIPLINES ARE AT RISK PERSONALLY IF THEY ARE PLACED BACK INTO THE HANDS OF THOSE THEY FLED FROM, WITH PERHAPS NO SECOND CHANCE. FOOD FOR THOUGHT !!

ASK YOURSELF THIS QUESTON. WHO IS THE LAST GUY YOU RAN INTO IN THIS PROFESSION WHO CAN HONESTLY SAY HE HAS SUCCESSFULLY FOUND AN AREA FOR TESTIMONY FROM OUR SKILLS WHICH WOULD BE SOUGHT AFTER EVEN BY THE LIBERALS, AND THAT IN WORKING WITH THESE SELF PROCLAIMED VICTIMS (WHOM THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS UPON), WE HAVE A USE OF OUR SKILLS WHICH IS RESISTANT TO CRITICISM. I'M THAT GUY TED, 20 YEARS ON THE JOB, WITH ANOTHER TWENTY IN FRONT OF ME. I LOVE THIS PROFESSION, AND JUST WANT TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR US.

THESE CONCEPTS I HAVE OUTLINED HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH A TEST FORMAT, BUT RATHER A DESIRE FOR YOU TO REFORMAT YOUR HARD DRIVE ie., Brain, AND SEE A LARGER PICTURE OF WHAT WE CAN BE DOING. IF IT IS NOT FOR YOU, AND YOU MAY NOT BE RIGHT FOR IT, THEN DEVELOP YOUR OWN SPECIALTY AREA, AND MAKE US BETTER, PLEASE. THAT'S ALL I'M TRYING TO DO.

posted 08-22-2007 09:50 PM         

Thanks for the clarification. I am sorry if I made you angry as that was never my intention. I was just trying to get a better understanding of what you are offering. Keep up the hard work!

posted 08-22-2007 10:53 PM            

Ted, I know you to be a wired and ballsey Examiner who many people don't know had your first case out of school as that five murder victim killing up in the Delta, and you took that head on with a confession to boot. I suppose that is a kin to Secretareat out of the gates in the Kentucky Derby who never looked back. You started out fast and hard, but don't run so fast you pass up missed opportunities. My offer stands as promised, as there is enough work for us all here, I only want the bar set high given the unique situation these people are in. These tests really demand our best skills ! There is a bonus prize too !! ALL of the manufacturer's agree that there Algorithms are BETTER at picking NDI's with a extremely low False Negative rate vs. D.I's with a bit larger false positive hit rate. A Fact I have testified to which Judges find intriguing and reassuring.

Well Fellas, and Ladies too, I speak tommorow at APA for the second year in a row. It is a great honor to do so, and we have such talented people in this profession that it is in fact very humbling. I could not have envisioned back in Polygraph school that I would have a 9th circuit opinion, or ever Actually testifying in such cases, or developing something new. I feel very blessed and focussed on making this a success for all of us and want your help. There is a door ajar that I have walked through, and can tell you that I am very optimistic about the future of this profession. Don't fear to walk behind me where we have finally been initially welcomed.

posted 08-30-2007 08:09 AM            

beening ex Australian Customs (9 years ), I do find the use of Polygraph MAY have some use in the evalaution of people claiming refugee status.
By the way if your ever down under your welcome at my place.

posted 11-28-2007 12:47 AM            

However, I agree wholeheartedly with Ted in his comments.

While we could all use in-service training in this unique area, to better familiarize ourselves with all of the nuances of these tests, we absolutely do not need "special" certification to administer the examinations.

Folks, we are hurting ourselves with this "specialization" craze. I conduct PCSOT, specific-issue, pre-employment, professional standards, domestic violence, etc... tests every week....does that mean I should have "special" certification in these areas?

I would submit that a proper foundational knowledge of polygraph, coupled with subject matter research, is sufficient.

Chip

posted 11-30-2007 08:47 PM            

I have never attended any specific training dealing with this particular issue, but it would seem to me that one might experience some of the same problems that one encounters in testing a rape victim.

More particularly it seems logical that a person who wants deperately to escape hostile or cruel government action might on one hand be inclined to somewhat exaggerate the treatment they received or on the other hand find some of the cruelty they experienced too horrible to discuss.

Either of these situations could cause problems with questions focused on whether or not they lied in their official statement.

Consequently, a DI might not be an accurate indicator of whether or not they were worthy of asylum even though "False Positive" wouldn't be the best term to describe what has occurred.

My questions to those experienced with this type of test is: Is this a concern? and How is this concern dealt with?

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Ex scientia veritas

posted 12-11-2007 07:25 PM            

Thank You for your comments !! The undiscussed or unconsidered variable here is that aspect of time. By the time you the Examiner meet these Asylees they have been in process in the immigration system from perhaps ten months to three years. They are not fresh out of the torture room in the third world, but have rather come here, requested asylum, gotten a temp. work permit, and assimilated into a routine. When seeing us they understand, or are made to understand, that it is an Attorney-Client type of test, and that above perceied credibility on the witness stand (Most third world folks don't do so well in this area), there needs to be a scientific approach toward validating them, as the Immigration Judges are aware of quite a bit of fraud in this class of case. We therefore make the asylee see the macro aspect of their case, and not just the micro aspect of what they have experienced idividually. Further, that just as with with working with other victims, they are made to see that recalling these events in their life today is for a good reason. Given that they have their very status at risk as an asylee there is inherant jeopardy in the equation. Our asking a set "Lie" based Relevant issue questions, as well as broad based "Lie" comparison questions is not so overpowering for these folks in my experience of over 600 of them as to cause a greater number of false positives or false negatives than any other subject area. Your office is a much friendlier environment, even on your worst day, than was the torture chamber they were in back in country X.

What I know for sure without any doubt is that Immigration Judges lost confidence in third world afidavit evidence a long time ago, and have told me they felt they were in a Lose / Lose decision in such cases. Second, since most if not all of the evidence for what the asylee had endured is out of the USA, Immigration Attorney's who handle these types of cases were frustrated as to how to approach these cases in creation of acceptable substitute evidence. Third, our nation has an immigration crisis, not just a problem, and that their needs to be a qualified filtering mechanism for such real cases that the legitimate ones are assisted, and the frauds exposed. In the real world such Immigration Judges probably get it right much of the time, but even they have concurred that our special skills can assist them in making a better qualified decision above and beyond their current ability. So said the 9th Circuit in Varun Goel v. Gonzalez in sections 4 and 5. It was a case I did which opened the door for us in this area.

When it comes to PSCOT or Paired Testing, APA has certification in these areas. This new area in Immigration Testing has implied testimony at higher levels than either of those two areas. So I have wondered why the resistance to setting a high standard for this type of testing, inclusive of certification, is debated here. When will we ever get another chance like this to be perceived by even our historical liberal foes as an important part of the process. Further, the more testimony takes place on NDI tests, it weakens the ability of said foes to challenge our extensive experience with the DI's.

SPC test waiting in the waiting room / Gotta Go !!!!!!!!!